Curse

Verek · Jan 22, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

the glads nerf hasnt stopped farming wiht it at all. it made my farming build 10x faster

I agree, I didn't see this a a nerf. I must say I only Occasionally
used it in my farming build and as above seems to work faster now.

Veneficus · Jan 22, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I still and probably always will consider PvE in Guild Wars to be a training ground leading to PvP.

Learn new things, Learn new skills, Meet new friends.

Then.. Go PvP with what you have learnt.

The PvE content in GW will never be up to the standards of almost 'offline' play style some you seem to expect and/or demand.

PvP is definitely not killing PvE.
PvE is definitely not intended to be the biggest part of the game.

However sadly Anets biggest fan base seems to be with PvE

*Shrug*

Alfrond · Jan 22, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veneficus

I still and probably always will consider PvE in Guild Wars to be a training ground leading to PvP.

Learn new things, Learn new skills, Meet new friends.

Then.. Go PvP with what you have learnt.

The PvE content in GW will never be up to the standards of almost 'offline' play style some you seem to expect and/or demand.

PvP is definitely not killing PvE.
PvE is definitely not intended to be the biggest part of the game.

However sadly Anets biggest fan base seems to be with PvE

*Shrug*

We all play Guild Wars the way we like best and one way isn't really better than any other. What is a training mode for you may be the main point of the game for someone else.

SodOffShotgun · Jan 22, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Skill changes happen in EVERY MMO.

Whether or not a certain MMO has PVP or not, there's ALWAYS nerfs and buffs. I see far too much scapegoating and blaming PVP for PVE issues.

As I said before PVE's problems have nothing to do with skill changes but with a whole slew of other things such as predictability and that it's ALWAYS the same when you play a certain instance.

If you want to improve PVE, stop blaming skill nerfs and PVP.

Diablo™ · Jan 22, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I enjoy PVE as always: before, during and after skill changes.

*Darcy* · Jan 22, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Personally, I enjoy the changes in PvE (don't do PvP), as they keep the game interesting. I don't think I would still be playing as much as I do if I was playing the same game I started a year ago.

And don't blame ANet for changing the skills. It's caused by the inventive minds of GW players. ANet creates a skill that they obviously think will be used in a certain way. Along comes a PvP player and "boom," the skill now has a use ANet never thought about.

P.S. Would the "farmers" please stop apologizing for farming. You are making it sound like farming is a "politically incorrect" occupation. We all farm in one way or another, whether for items or xp or gold, you don't need to apologize because you enjoy it (though I haven't figured out how you could).

Age · Jan 22, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

PvE is their moneymaker.

Yeap but they seem to forget that when ppl want to have fun with the game eg. farm and run.To the OP I like Glad Defence to but it isn't the skill I use the most of on my Warriors bar those would be evsicrete and dragon slash.Charge is a good elite it is good in both parts of game especially in GvG.The Dragons Lair mission it not that hard and it is not that hard to cap Glad Defence I did it with henchies and it wasn't that hard.

Searing flames is a little over powered what was it like capping that skill I would bet you harder than Glad Defence and it is easy to spam and run out of energy.I don't think separating the game is a good idea for those that want to use thier RP char. in PvP.I would urge you to try new build without Glad Defence and besides it won't increase the amount of damage you put out.

Str0b0 · Jan 22, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

The point has been made about the EQ mechanic in which skills have different functions in PvP than in PvE and that in order to use a skill for PvP purposes a player must switch it to the PvP function. This would be a viable solution but difficult to implement with the current code of the game.

MacStar · Jan 23, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

I've never really done much PvP, although I like the occasional PvP. I'm more of a fan of PvE, much more to explore and much more fun in my opinion

Burst Cancel · Jan 23, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

I like how most of you just ignored Wasteland's post. Was it because you knew that he was right and there was nothing else to talk about? Or was it because you weren't bright enough to understand what he was saying?

The bottom line is that skill balance matters more in PvP than it does in PvE. It isn't a matter of which format is better, or which format Anet likes more, or even which format GW was 'designed for'. Imbalance destroys PvP, which is why it's addressed more often.

SodOffShotgun · Jan 23, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

People who play PVE dont care about balance. They want "uber" skills that kills lots of monsters with lots of damage with a single click of a button. Extra points if there's a lot of special effects and explosions accompanying the mass destruction.

So yes, of course they'll ignore any rational and logical explainations that the changes are for balance. So there will always be pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth whenever skills are touched.

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I like how most of you just ignored Wasteland's post. Was it because you knew that he was right and there was nothing else to talk about? Or was it because you weren't bright enough to understand what he was saying?

The bottom line is that skill balance matters more in PvP than it does in PvE. It isn't a matter of which format is better, or which format Anet likes more, or even which format GW was 'designed for'. Imbalance destroys PvP, which is why it's addressed more often.

I agree with you PvP is more affected by skill imbalances however, it is very narrow minded to imply that it doesn't appreciably affect PvE, which many people have implied in their posts if not outright stated it. I would also like to say that the majority of PvE players do not want "uber skills" that just destroy everything. We like an element of strategy and planning and we like coming up with the perfect combination of skills to just mow down the opposition.

Now I know I can't make such claims that PvE is affected by skill balancing without backing it up to some degree. Aside form all the whining you hear from farmers about how their precious build that allowed them to make 50K in an hour doesn't work anymore there is one simple fact that you are ignoring. While our opponents are less intelligent and more predictable they can also be orders of magnitude more powerful than any opponent you face in PvP. The player cap on level is 20. Monsters can be higher than that and if you think they let those extra attribute points just sit there you are very wrong. Granted they will not use the skills as intelligently, though the new AI seems to understand the concept of spiking very very well, when they do use some of those damage skills you will see more damage out of them than you will ever see in PvP. Those lvl 28 Ele mobs will spike the crap out of you in a heartbeat and without some of the "overpowered" skills you will die time and time again with no ability to counter some of it. I realize spells can be interrupted but there are some times in the chaos of battle that that isn't feasible and it is no different from me saying that if you don't like an overpowered skill you should just counter it.

I think that PvPers need to communicate better in community settings like this. I know many of you do legitimately try to explain why these things must be done and you do it well, but you have to admit by and large the replies we PvE people get when we complain about a certain nerf is." Shut up PvE is for noobs. It doesn't matter. Go cry about farming some more." I would encourage those of you with the decency to try to make a legitimate attempt at bridging the understanding gap between our two , admittedly, differing view points to not get discouraged and to keep it up. For those of you who believe that PvE people are whiney scum I would ask you to follow some of your fellow PvPer's example. If you need any encouragement I invite you to take a look back at some of my old posts on skill nerfs. I used to be there whining with the rest of them and it took a lot of patient and competent explanation from some very level headed PvP players to finally make me understand why. I still don't have to like a nerf (honestly who does?) but at least I can understand the why of it.

SodOffShotgun · Jan 23, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I agree with you PvP is more affected by skill imbalances however, it is very narrow minded to imply that it doesn't appreciably affect PvE, which many people have implied in their posts if not outright stated it. I would also like to say that the majority of PvE players do not want "uber skills" that just destroy everything. We like an element of strategy and planning and we like coming up with the perfect combination of skills to just mow down the opposition.

But the thing is....PVE in general really is affected very minimally by skill changes. First, PVE is static and predictable. You can always be prepared with a build before you even step into a PVE instance.

Second, heck you can even go into PVE with empty skill bars at times. Or even short handed. Basically, PVE is easy.

Yes, I do hate PVE now but only because I've played it so much since the betas. It's boring and easy for the most part. So I can understand why so many do want "uber" skills that kill everything. I wasnt exaggerating when I said that.

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I'd settle for an uber build that I thought of all on my lonesome than one uber skill. I think I found that with my Dervish. I mean I still die but it's rare and he does pretty much mow down everything. I still have to plan ahead, kite, work the enemy backline, apply pressure and the like. Certain skills are required to do that and many of them are the same ones you use in PvP for the same purposes. So if those sills catch a nerf it does make more of a difference to you, after all I'm not gaining rank or fame and I have no chance at winning prize money in PvE, but it does make a difference to me as well and by and large for the same reasons they make a difference to you. An example would be in my dervish build. I rely on keeping a more or less constant condition of some sort on the enemies, be it blind, bleeding, or fire. Not only do two of these mean DoT but it also pressures the enemy monks to keep up with condition removal instead of healing. Believe it or not they do actually react that way. Now If one of my condition dropping skills got a nerf because it was used in HoH for the same purpose, keeping pressure on the backline to keep the warriors clean instead of maintaining vital enchantments, and it was deemed too powerful and it got the nerf it would not only affect you in PvP but me in PvE and it would make my life much more difficult just as it would yours.

I don't really disagree with you guys on any particular point, but I think you give PvE too little credit. I have tried PvP and honestly I find it boringly easy. Granted I can't go in there with an empty skill bar or shorthanded but with my Mesmer/Necro I can basically shut down an entire backline which results in a quick death for the opposing team. While you may find PvP to be a challenge I find it to be a chore. This doesn't mean PvP is a less worthy aspect of the game or that it is in any way worse it simply means that my perception of it differs from yours. Honestly for all the talk of the metagame and strategy in both PvE and PvP you have to admit it's still basically the same principle it has been from the get go. Remove the support and the rest will fall. That is universal no matter how many skill balances or updates they do.

That being said I still think a more respectful dialogue from both sides, the PvP and PvE aspects of the game, will be the one thing that finally brings this old debate to a close. I mean honestly how long has this same sort of argument gone on? I bet if you look back you will find dozens of threads with the same basic theme and the dates will coincide with the major skill balances and changes. What it all stems from though is that you have a hardcore PvE camp and a hardcore PvP camp and neither of us really see eye to eye. It's not that we can't it's simply that many times we get too frustrated trying to explain our points to one another. Patience and dialogue will be the key here. It worked for me. I understand perfectly why skill balance is needed and I do not blame PvP in the slightest. I adapt and I move on even if my life in game is more difficult because of it. I rest easy knowing that it's not just me having a hard time now because once these things happens it usually results in a paradigm shift in the metagame that leaves a lot of PvPers scrambling to adapt and sometimes having a hard time doing it.

Katari · Jan 23, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I'm quite solidly a PvEr. I follow what's happening in PvE via forums, and PvPer friends, but I almost never particapate in any higher PvP than TA.

I loved the changes, a large number of skills were opened up,and in all honesty, the change to warrior stances means less to PvE than it does to PvP.

And hey, com'on people, if they were going to nerf purely from a farming point of view, why didn't they touch Stoneflesh Aura + Mystic Regen? Why doesn't Pront Bond have some tiny limiting factor in it that prevents any form of 55-monking?

A.Net has been balancing skills for nearly two years now, 'nerfing' and 'buffing' scores of skills. All it takes is a coincidental 'nerf' to a skill that's abusable in two formats, and people yell that A/Net somehow 'hates' pvpers.

Yeargh >_<

The thing is, you can't convince me that this has actually happened this time, so I'm sorta confused.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jan 23, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

The irony in this thread is hillarious.

Malice Black · Jan 23, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

The irony in this thread is hillarious.

PvP vs PvE threads are always a good read before bed

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Honestly though I don't think this needs to be one of those threads and there has been some real honest to goodness dialogue here in the latter pages and that's good. The more they continue to add to the Guild Wars universe the more equally represented the play styles are and soon I think that PvE v/s PvP will become less of an issue. I think a lot of PvE players are coming around and seeing that skill nerfs are not because of whiney PvP players and I think that a lot of PvP players are beginning to see that the nerfs and buffs to affect us significantly as well. that is at least one good outcome of these things. With each progressive thread like this more and more level headed and mature points of view are put forth and that fosters a better understanding between the two play styles.

Thallandor · Jan 23, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I thank you Str0b0 for your post #72 and #74.

In all honesty, i dont really think PvE is worse off from the skill balance. I am still around arent I? But it can be discouraging when "nerfs" are rolled vs frustrations of imbalanced build dominating PvP scene.

The nature of the discussions between PvE and PvP aspects have always been on the edge with both sides citing each other for whining and debuking each other on basis of experience. In short, creating alot of drama in the process rather than logical deductions towards the actual problem.

Most of this stems from the same unspoken reasons why the general mood of such and other fansite forums are negative in general. Because different interest group are in direct competition for attention/changes to their specific area of concern. This can take place in the form that can be percieved as whining, forum elitism, immaturity or just plain name calling. No one wants to be perceived to be weak in their arguements and hence will go to whatever lengths to get what they want. Which in the end, most of the things we read here should be taken with a pinch of salt. ( The same can be said of most of my posts as well. )

_____________________
General Rule of the forum universe: Joo Flame me ! I FLAME JOO BACK MOFO!

Clone · Jan 23, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Honestly though I don't think this needs to be one of those threads and there has been some real honest to goodness dialogue here in the latter pages and that's good. The more they continue to add to the Guild Wars universe the more equally represented the play styles are and soon I think that PvE v/s PvP will become less of an issue. I think a lot of PvE players are coming around and seeing that skill nerfs are not because of whiney PvP players and I think that a lot of PvP players are beginning to see that the nerfs and buffs to affect us significantly as well. that is at least one good outcome of these things. With each progressive thread like this more and more level headed and mature points of view are put forth and that fosters a better understanding between the two play styles.

Cheers for the call for civility

Anyway, I'll put in my two cents here. I think a lot of the angst on the skill changes here isn't comming from the idea that the updated versions are bad. Some are quite good. The problem is they are comming in at the cost of skills some players would prefer to see unchanged. You can debate which version of glad's defense is better all day long. Ultimately, it would depend on what it was being used for and what you're going up against. But it won't change the fact that some people prefer it the old way. If Anet would simply add a new skill in the next chapter called "Champion's Defense" or something like that, having the new glad's stats, and leave the old glad's alone, no one would have batted an eye. Adding new skills in new chapters won't cause controvercy, changing something someone had on their skill bar, even slightly, will.